Manners

[tinyjo]

I was listening to a debate on R4 on the way home last night about whether lack of manners is what's dragging us down into a yob culture (it's part of a series called "Is Britain going to the dogs?"!). It was very interesting in the end - much better than I expected - and one particular comment made me think. "Manners are a virtue"

Initially, I was very dubious about this statement - does having good manners make you a better person? Surely it's things like kindness and honesty which make you a better person. Inside things. Manners are more presentational.

Earlier in the discussion they'd talked about a distinction between manners and etiquette. They'd made it clear what etiquette was but not really (to me) what manners were and this idea of manners as a virtue suddenly made me see where the distinction lay. Etiquette is the presentational part - the pleases and thank-yous, the holding of the door which ease our days and make things nicer but are not necessarily virtuous in themselves. Manners on the other hand are tied in with respect. They talked about the shift towards respect which must be earned rather than being automatic. To me, the essence of manners is that you give everyone the opportunity to earn that respect. You never write someone off automatically. You give everyone a fair hearing. I think that is something which makes you a better person.

What do you think?

Comments

[smithi1.livejournal.com]

I think I really like Radio 4.

Even if you don't look any further than the face of it, there's a clearly observable correlation between manners and respect. You just have to look at kids being rude to policemen.

My train of thought about this came up with one of my favourite quotes, attributed to one Oliver Herford.

A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally.

That's the 'good' way to manners - having the empathy to understand what someone will find to be rude or not. The bad way is, of course, to be scared enough of someone.

Hmm.. thanks for this - especially since I missed R4's Thought For The Day this morning :)

[zoo-music-girl.livejournal.com]

Your mood icon is broken for me.

I miss R4, Alexander prefers XFM and I can't really concentrate on R4 with someone else around anyway.

Manners/etiquette, yes, what you say makes sense. Although I'd argue that while manners are about courtesy and respect, etiquette is about following set social and behavioural guidelines and don't necessarily relate to manners. (E.g. using the correct fork.)

[tinyjo.livejournal.com]

Fixed (I hope).

I think you're right about etiquette. Perhaps, thinking about it again, what I really need 3 levels, not two. Manners/respect at the top level as a virtue, courtesy/consideration in the middle, important but not quite as positive as manners and etiquette/social rules the lowest importance.

[soulsong.livejournal.com]

I used to really resent my mum's idea of etiquette (that I naturally was forced to participate in). This was because I saw it used as a mask to hide what she really thought of some people. I knew the smiles were false, and I resented having to be part of the sham.

It also seemed to create some bizarre situations which went against my sense of fairness. For example, I recall when I was in my teens that a friend of mine who had arrived at our house earlier than expected, was required to wait outide for me while our family ate dinner, because to let him in and then not ask him to join us for dinner would have been rude, apparently. I never did understand that one. I mean, surely making him wait outside is even more rude? Well that's the way it seemed to me when I was 15.

The distinction between etiquette and manners reminds me a little of the difference between morality and ethics, but I'm not going to get into that minefield!

I like your suggestion that manners are different because they're tied in with respect. That rings true to me. Etiquette is a superficial thing. Manners come more from the real you.

From that perspective, lack of manners is indicative of a decline into 'yob culture', but it's not a cause. The cause is lack of respect for ourselves, and lack of respect for those around us, not forgetting a lack of respect for the land we live on, (which is quite possibly at the root of it all).

The older I get, the more I look for and respect good manners in people. You may shoot me if I ever start talking about beating respect into the young, though. We can only lead by example. Hypocrites need not apply.

[jinty]

Initially, I was very dubious about this statement - does having good manners make you a better person? Surely it's things like kindness and honesty which make you a better person. Inside things. Manners are more presentational.

For this, Jane Austen is one of the premier authors in English. Her books are all about manners and etiquette. In Emma, for instance, the lead character generally has very polished etiquette, but less heart than she should have -- which leads her to be horrendously rude to Mrs Bates, the genteel but wittery old lady whose inanities drive Emma to distraction. I forget exactly what Emma says, but it betrays her true exasperation in an unkind way, when Mrs Bates deserves all the consideration that her social circle should grant to her age and rather rickety social position (old maid, impoverished, but with a 'good background'). It's made very clear that Emma's smart dresses, good table manners, social polish etc do not make up for lack of this sort of 'good manners' -- which is really just consideration.

This comes in many forms -- if you are rich and others are not, you don't swank your wealth in front of them, or force them to spend more to keep up with you; you are careful to include everyone in conversation and to give everyone a turn in dancing; you are careful not to monopolise people to the exclusion of others, even if the person in question is your long-lost love.

Of course, to the modern eye, this all seems a) very antiquated and stiff; b) a way of living that is extremely hedged about with constraints, and c) hypocritical, because it's not like the same considerations were extended to social inferiors. (Although actually Emma, amongst other Austen novels, does indicate that you should show consideration to social inferiors -- this includes not expecting them to be like you, but to have virtues of their own -- 'separate but both necessary to the smooth running of the world', one might say.)

Nevertheless, there's a lot of good stuff in there, once you get past the 'etiquette/manners' distinction and see that it's about consideration, not 'formal' good manners.

[barberio.livejournal.com]

I was recently walking through a parking lot, due to the pathway to the train station being on the other side of it.

Half way across, a car had to stop for a few seconds so I could walk past. I smiled and nodded in thanks.

The person driving rolled down the window and shouted 'You could have said thanks you bleeding ingrate'.

I guess in this situation, she was being polite, but not with good manners.